Now that our attempt to purchase a short sale property has come to a disappointing conclusion (see this item from Monday for full details), the catharsis of sharing a few parting thoughts on the subject seemed to be in order so as to, perhaps, help others who might be in the middle of trying to buy a short sale property or thinking about doing so.
In contrast to the plight of underwater sellers, there appears to be little positive to relate from the buyer’s end of the transaction which consists of varying degrees of uncertainty, frustration, delays, and disappointment in what is an emotional roller coaster ride that no one deserves but, as was the case for the two of us, people are all too willing to give a shot because the house that they really want became available as a short sale at a reasonable asking price.
But, there is good news for short sale sellers – those who borrowed and spent way more than they should have – in that you can probably live there in your own house rent free for quite some time while the banks, real estate agents, and doe-eyed buyers stumble through this process that only seems to serve one purpose – “extend and pretend” for the banks, delaying the realization of losses for as long as possible.
Sellers can play the “extend and pretend” game too. Ideally, you’ll want to try to get your mortgage modified for about a year and, after that fails, then see if you can keep your home listed as a short sale for another year, bolstering your personal finances by tens of thousands of dollars during that time since you’re not making any mortgage payments.
If you think I’m bitter, you’d be absolutely correct.
Here are a few thoughts from an unsuccessful buyer’s perspective that might be helpful to anyone involved in or interested in trying to buy a short sale property.
1. The Process is Entirely Unpredictable
Don’t listen to anyone who tells you that you should get x result in y amount of time. Real estate sales agents don’t make money unless they sell a house and they can’t sell a house without getting an offer, so, you are unlikely to get anything other than an optimistic outlook from agents who have not already been sufficiently tortured by going through the process of trying to get a short sale deal done.
The listing agent in our deal said that he just closed a short sale in about a week. Others will tell you that short sales can take over a year. If your listing agent doesn’t know what he is doing (see number 3 below) it could take much longer than it might otherwise and, since buyers are not familiar with this process, you are likely to be hopeful at first as we were.
Second liens, the bank’s ability/willingness to move forward, the government’s foreclosure alternatives program, the relationship between the bank and the homeowner, and a host of other factors make the short sale process entirely unpredictable. If you get a response to your offer from the bank within three or four months, you’ll have done well, just don’t expect that response to be the one that you were expecting after having waited so patiently.
2. The Process will Drain You, Emotionally
Prepare to be disappointed. The ups and downs will take their toll and after a few months or so you might tell your realtor what we told ours the other day – “At this point, we’re more interested in the process being over than we are in getting the house. If we get the house, fine. If not, fine. We just want this to be over”
Words do not do justice to how draining this can be on your psyche and, the sad part is that the banks couldn’t care less because the offer for your dream home might be file number 11,369 out of about 40,000 short sale offers that they are working their way through at the moment. Among the many other things that will forever change Americans’ views about housing in the aftermath of the burst housing bubble will be that hundreds of thousands of homebuyers like us will become just as jaded as the housing bubble losers have become (also see The Case Against Homeownership in this week’s Time Magazine).
Unfortunately, an innately optimistic set of responsible buyers will no doubt go down the road that we did, not understanding the realities of short sales and venturing forward only to learn the hard way as we did. That’s life I suppose. We were warned early on (not by anyone involved in the transaction) but did not heed those warnings, thinking that we didn’t have anything to lose. Little did we know that a little bit of our emotional well being has been lost over the last four months, a very bitter taste now left behind.
3. Without a Good Listing Agent, You’re Screwed
This item should probably be number one, however, for buyers who happen to get lucky with a listing agent who is experienced and good at short sales, it could be a complete non-factor. Put simply, if the listing agent doesn’t know what they’re doing, you’ll be screwed and, after each month that goes by, you’ll be more screwed, but you probably won’t realize just how screwed you are until you’ve become overly invested in the process.
In our case that was when we entered month five.
A reasonable guess might be that half of all failed short sales are due to the listing agent being unable to effectively deal with the system that banks have put in place to handle their short sale volume and, more importantly, the listing agent being unable or unwilling to effectively communicate the progress that has or has not been made to the buyer’s agent and the buyer who, when they reach their breaking point, ultimately throw in the towel as we did the other day.
The bank – listing agent -buyer’s agent – buyer chain of communication is, basically, designed to fail. If you can get a better read on how the bank – listing agent part of this relationship works, then, you might at least know to pull the plug early rather than later.
The most important thing to understand about the entire short sale process is that the listing agent is key to being successful. If we had known how incompetent our listing agent was earlier, we’d have been long gone by now.
4. You May or May Not Get a Bargain
If you thought that short sales sell at 5 to 8 percent below “market” price, think again. Depending upon your local market and the difficulty in determining fair market value, your fate may not lie in the hands of the bank or the listing agent but in the palms of a hungry real estate agent who was paid $100 to provide a BPO – Broker’s Price Opinion.
The bank doesn’t know anything about the house that you are trying to buy – they are located hundreds or thousands of miles away. Whether or not there are comparably priced homes that failed as short sales and will emerge as bank owned properties in the months ahead or how sales have virtually stopped after the homebuyer tax credit ended with dozens or hundreds of sellers having hugely inflated ideas about what they can get for their property that is now on the market probably won’t make any difference at all because, in the end, the bank looks at the BPO number and then they make a counter offer.
In our case, the first aborted counter-offer (see the update from August) that was based on the first BPO in June was about $20,000 below the asking price and, last Friday, after another BPO was completed last month, the counter-offer was raised by $19,100, to just $900 below the asking price.
If you happen to be lucky enough to get the bank to respond to your offer within the first four or five months, understand that, unless the home’s value can be correctly valued by a monkey (e.g., like condos with lots of recent comparable sales), the agent providing the BPO can screw you just as badly as the listing agent.
5. Banks are Heartless and Evil
While you may think that there is a real person on the other side of the negotiating table at the bank, you should be disabused of this notion very early on because, at the other end of the deal is a banker. Worse yet, it is a banker who is doing the worst job in banking – realizing losses on a grand scale for his employer.
This is not the sort of bank job that earns big bonuses and, by and large, they are dealing with two realtors who are trying to make sales commissions of thousands of dollars along with a buyer who wants to get a deal on a house, so, you too might become heartless and evil if you were doing that job.
As a buyer, you really want to be dealing with a motivated seller and, one thing that has become crystal clear to me over the last four months is that, despite the attractive asking price (again, see item 3 above), banks are not in any hurry to realize losses any faster than the current snail’s pace and, unfortunately, that’s not going to change anytime soon.
Short sales appear to be phase two of the bank’s “extend and pretend” game that is portrayed as trying to do something helpful for struggling homeowners. First there were the various loan mod programs that put things on hold for about a year while the banks continue to carry these assets on their books at full value as they borrow at nearly zero percent interest and buy Treasuries that yield a few percent more.
Then comes phase two – short sales -where another year is added to the amount of time that banks can delay realizing losses as they work slowly on the growing backlog of short sale offers. Of course, short sales are a pretty sweet deal for the bank because, instead of foreclosing on these properties and then having to maintain them until they are sold, the homeowner is living there rent free, keeping the place in shape to show at a moment’s notice – a relative win-win for the bank.
That’s the real lesson here – for those banks that were good, big, or lucky enough to have survived the 2008 crash, everything seems to be a win-win.











![[Most Recent USD from www.kitco.com]](http://www.weblinks247.com/indexes/idx24_usd_en_2.gif)

Wow. That was a real eye-opener. Thanks for sharing and my condolences to you and your wife.
By far your best rant in some time. Kudos to you! Humbug to the banks!
Tim – we are experiencing exactly the same thing in NZ – the markets are not as bad here but banks are holding on to underwater property for years on end. Even as a long term landlord i find it frustrating as you invest time and effort and then a few months later they finally relent and sell it to someone else – FOR LESS!! Banks ain’t smart if they where then this situation wouldn’t arise. Best advice is if you still like the house track it see if it comes up again it will. Its hard with a personal home but be cool watch and wait read ‘ art of war ‘ by tsung su !! You will beat the banks with time because they are greedy and stupid!
You’ve got to be kidding! Banks are heartless and evil because you tried to screw them out of their asking price and offer them less??? Why is it whenever I hear some moron complaining about this business or the other treating them badly or not knowing anything about “customer service”, it’s always coming from someone trying to get special treatment or not pay full price. Look, if you want to spend your time haggling with someone trying to get a better price, that’s your choice. But if they choose not to deal with you, you’ve got no business whining about it. Shut the hell up and move on.
Uh… “screw them out of their asking price” and “special treatment” after waiting patiently for four months and only getting the runaround and then getting a $20K price increase over what we were told a month ago?
Yeah, I’m the bad guy here for not offering full price right off the bat and for complaining about how f#@ked up short sales are.
You’ve got to be kidding…
Phil,
You’re the moron. The banks are keeping the prices propped up at overpriced levels to try to mitigate their losses. Only a moron would pay their asking price in this current manipulated market.
Ok, fine, the banks are keeping the asking prices on the properties they own at “overpriced” levels. Move on and find something else in your price range and stop whining about it!
Phil, you’re a real douchebag.
For the record, ours was not a lowball offer and we are perfectly capable of paying full price if we wanted to.
Phil – Tim couldn’t be more right. All of what he said is true. I am in MONTH 16. SIXTEEN! And you want to know what? My offer is almost 15k above asking price. Bank of America – the worst company in America.
Phil, I was also in a short-sale clusterf*** and made an offer on a house for the listing price (i.e. exactly what the price tag asked for, no haggling). Wells Fargo (aka Satan’s Corporation) got back to me months later to say “No, the lowest we can go is $10,000 more than the original asking price. House still sold as is. You also get to pay for 2 years owed on HOA fees ($1000). Take it or leave.” Tim, I feel for you. A true waste of time and effort. Also, this experience solidified my current belief that I will never, EVER do business with Wells Fargo.
Phil,
Everyone has business writing about banks because their losses are on our backs for years. As a person that pays a lot in taxes as I am sure Tim does too based on the performance of his portfolio at least being responsive would be nice instead of taking four months to come back with a ridiculous counter offer.
all that hassle for a 20 grand discount? no way, maybe 50% off but not a couple of points. you are better off renting your dream home, no maintenance, no interest, no land taxes, cheaper insurance, lower monthly payments, and you are liquid.
The scam that owning your own home is the way to go is dead.
Rule of thumb, anything the government tells you is good to do, just do the opposite.
Jim Rogers rents.
my buddy and i have been buying short sales here in Ca. for about 1/3 the building price(we never know the loan amount)-sell them for about 20 grand over and turn it in about 2 months-no problem if you have cash in hand-we focus on properties that cost about 300 grand to build and buy em for about 100 gs-again cash in hand-its been easy
Where abouts in Ca. north or south?
so cal–we will not do any dealing with BofA-if a buyer says they are getting loan thru bofa we say no deal-no short offers to bofa(bank of asses)
Just had a similar experience in Flor-di-da! Actually offered the asking price only to have an insider at the bank outbid by $100 with no option to counter offer. Bottom line…the banks, realtors, and the Federal government are all conspiring together to rob, cheat, and steal from honest, hard-working, financially responsible (i.e. debt-free) Americans at every opportunity while rewarding themselves and the rest of the sleazebags who cashed in big-time on this giant, government supported, and taxpayer funded Ponzi scheme.
Banana republic With Nukes
Really…I just quit claimed my property to a holding company to wich i pay rent, based on a fraud suit against the bank, just try and get clear tilte here. HA HA HA……………..f ing banker……. burn in deaths rage
We are nearing the end of a century-long synthetic credit bubble. In 1900 an average house might have sold for about $1000 – $3000 (silver) dollars. In other words, the value of a house in real terms is equivalent to about 1-3 junk bags of silver. A junk bag contains the equivalent of $1000 silver dollars, or 715 oz. silver, and silver is currently $20/oz. That come to about $15,000/bag. Mark my word: when this credit collapse is over, homes will be selling for – in today’s dollars – $15,000. $45,000 will get you a mansion. Anyone who thinks now is a good time to buy begging for a corn-cobbing. Great article Tim! (I feel your pain.)
hmm… you are saying that people should ignore 100 years of history on housing price trends and the supply vs. demand because of credit and compounding interest
This report would have been a lot easier to understand if the term “short sale” were defined somewhere near the beginning or in a previous article. I gave up looking after a while.
It sure isn’t the same as a “short sale” of stock.
RB
Phil,
House buying 101. In an appreciating market, like five years ago, pay full price plus premium. In a depreciating market. Offer asking MINUS premium.
The fact is if the banks put all the houses they have delayed foreclosing on housing prices would fall like a stone in a dry well. Is it greed to offer less on a house which most likely is worth much less anyway? No, it’s good business. Prices should fall to 1996 levels really.
Best to wait another two years for the market to really fall.
Jimmy
Oh Timmy, you pathetic, pouting, hipster. What makes your position the moral high ground; bottom feeding. Your throwing a temper tantrum because you got beat. Depending upon the amount of time those OWNERS were in THEIR home, they paid possibly tens of thousands of dollars to the crooks that created this travesty. Their just gaming the system, just as you attempted to do but failed.
Are you referring to “hipster” in the 1940s subculture sense or is it the contemporary urban middle class connotation? I’m confused because neither applies.
I’m in the middle of a short sale with Bank of America. It has been 6 months and I am still dealing with the 3rd party negotiator entity that BofA has contracted wit (equator).
Long story short, due to having to start the process entirely over (for what the equator rep said was known glitch in the software) there have been ridiculous delays. We have had 2 BPOs and wouldn’t you know it, the second came in much higher than the first.
Although my first offer to the first negotiator who accepted and was to be presented to the investors and senior bank management, the delay necessitated the new BPO and now the second negotiator has countered higher. The icing on top of all of this is that due to the “glitch”, I have lost out on my ability to get the homebuyer’s credit of $6500.
I think I’ll just be content with saving on rent until the market falls more 6 months from now. After all, we are already living in the home since we are renting it.
The only problem is that my wife wants to paint!
Tim,
sorry to hear it didn’t work out. It seems the whole real estate process is one jacked up mess right now. My house in IL is under contract for barely more than I paid for it in 2004. I have given my buyers three extension over the last 60 days and no closing date in sight. I would love to pull the plug, but frankly, this is the only hope I have in selling the house and finding a better school for my kids.
We continue to look at houses (even a few short-sales) with the hopes that our buyers can come through. On the advice of my attorney we have decided to stay far, far away from any short’s. He told us two stories of short-sales falling apart at the closing. On the first, the bank notified the buyer that the $7500 back tax lien was their responsibility. The buyer didn’t have the $7500 and walked away….after 8 months. On the second, the bank came to the closing and refused to pay any commission to either agent. The buyer had gone 9+ months waiting to get the deal done.
Suffices to say that even if you could have gotten to the closing table, it may not have happened.
Tim -
I am so sorry to read of your experience trying to buy a home on a short sale. Your experience is exactly why I do all I can to steer potential buyers AWAY from even looking at a short sale listing.
You make some very good points and I will share them with clients. There is one point I want to clarify for you and your readers.
You say: Real estate sales agents don’t make money unless they sell a house and they can’t sell a house without getting an offer, so, you are unlikely to get anything other than an optimistic outlook from agents.
You won’t get an optimistic outlook from most buyer’s agents I know and work with because as you said we don’t get paid unless we SELL a house. Sure we gotta have an offer before a house will sell, but if it never closes, there is no pay. So not only was your time and energy wasted, but your realtor worked for free all those months.
With all the challenges and hoops that need to be cleared (and usually aren’t), I try to honestly prepare buyers for the time involved in even getting a response and they may not get the house at the end,
I have been on the listing side of a couple of short sales and I hate them. There is no satisfying anyone – the bank/investor, the sellers, the buyer’s agent or the buyer – because they usually don’t result in sold!
Just my quarter’s worth!
Why is everyone jumping on Phil? He’s been called everything from a douchebag to a moron? All he said is that if you don’t like the process of buying short sales, stop complaining and buy your property some other way. Hello.
If you’re willing to negotiate with a bank and complete a short sale, and you feel you can get the best deal for yourself by taking that route – nobody, including Phil is telling you you shouldn’t go for it. Just don’t complain about it if the process is difficult. Most things that are worthwhile are difficult. That’s life.
It’s not the result that is at issue here – it’s the process.
If Tim had submitted an offer and they had returned a counter offer that he didn’t like in a reasonable period of time (a few days or weeks), then he would have kindly declined and moved on.
Unfortunately it takes many months just to get a response from banks and, by that time, most buyers have grown increasingly angry, frustrated, and incensed resulting in the kind of venting you just read.
Fortunately, this should serve as a helpful guide to some buyers who are considering making an offer on a short sale.
That’s entirely the point, Tim didn’t follow “the process”. A bank goes through a long, buerocratic process in approving a short sale and determining what is an acceptable loss to take. Only after that process is complete and a listing price is established, is the short sale approved and listed. If you offer them less, the whole process starts all over again. If the market happens to have moved against you in that time, the price may go up, as in any business transaction.
If Tim had offered them their listing price, the deal would have closed in roughly the same amount of time as a “normal” property sale. But he decided he wanted to play games an offer them less, and that’s what he got, a long, frustrating game.
Phil, which asspect of working for a bank do you fall under: a bank’s lawyer or lobbyist, or PR pump-monkey???
“If Tim had offered them their listing price, the deal would have closed in roughly the same amount of time as a “normal” property sale.” bwa ha ha ha, ya right!
I personally know of deals where the banks were offered OVER the asking
price from day one…..only to have it tied up for months, as in Tim’s case.
Why don’t you peddle your pro-bank b.s. somewhere else, douchbag!
Several things here that are in error. First, you can have the best, most experienced listing agent in the world and that agent would be subjected to obstacles that are beyond their control. The success or lack thereof depends on the lender, the work load, and the overall organization of the lending institution. For example: as a broker, I worked a short sale for my sellers with Bank of America. A complete nightmare. The workout agent for BoA called me one night (on his own time) apologizing for not returning my calls or emails. He informed me that he was personally working on over 300 short sales and that the situation is way worse than anything that can be imagined. Trust me, 300 deals in real estate is way beyond anyone’s ability to manage. In reality, 20 would be a lot. Furthermore, the “selling agent” has virtually nothing to do with the lender. The reason? Only the listing agent is granted authority via affidavit from the lender to discuss the loan for the lenders client. Back to my BoA short sale, I made numerous calls to supervisors, etc. and still couldn’t get anyone off the mark. Finally, after over 6 months the deal closed. Another factor to consider: being that the lender is losing money on the short sale is perhaps another reason for so much delay, hoping for a better offer to come in that would beat yours?
The short sale process is incredibly cumbersome with numerous and varying factors that make no two alike. As for the banks being “heartless and evil,” in my opinion is rather childish. These people have an incredibly difficult job to do and become understandably jaded due to the incredible volume they are working through. The workout agents themselves are subjected to delays, such as compiling all necessary documents, receiving an adequate Broker’s Price Opinion, and ultimately the committee that will decide on whether or not to approve your offer. As you can probably imagine, the committees are overwhelmed as well.
The big mistake you made was attempting to buy a short sale in the first place. If you don’t have at least 6 months, and are not emotionally prepared for a possible rejection after that 6 months, you have no business pursuing short sales.
I am at a loss here.
I’m not a Bankster, but your tears are, in my opinion, unjustified. After all Tim, the way I red your rant you didn’t lose a penny.
Life Tim, is nothing but an emotional roller coaster. And if the experience you’ve just gone through has got you down, then Tim you’re in grave trouble.
My suggestion for you Tim, is chin up and chalk it up as a learning experience. And now that you do know some of the pitfalls of short sales; Well man get in there and try again!
LoL
I haven’t heard any short sale success stories in these comments…
There’s been lots of whining about my whining and a number of buyers who had similar disappointments along with a couple realtors and bankers who no doubt see short sales as an important part of their future and are doing their best to embrace it.
I know of a few short sale deals around here that closed in less than three months and we had a listing agent who was always talking in terms of weeks, not months, after he closed an all-cash short sale in ten days.
The most important thing about short sales is setting expectations properly, something that was not done in our case due to the combination of the listing realtor and the bank.
About a month into the process, the listing agent told us the bank told him that we could either pay the asking price immediately or wait three weeks and get it for tens of thousands of dollars less.
This is why buyers walk away – after being told things like this only to have a completely different bit of news a week or two later.
If we had understood what Ray says above – “If you don’t have at least 6 months, and are not emotionally prepared for a possible rejection after that 6 months, you have no business pursuing short sales.” then we would not have made an offer, or, perhaps we would have paid full price early on, but, after months of uncertainty, frustration, delays, and disappointment, the well gets poisoned and I blame this squarely on the banks and the realtors.
It’s time for the government to pull the plug and and tell the bankers to unload these underwater loans so USA can get this behind us and start growing again.If the banks refuse, have the regulators “mark the loans to market”. Japan has no growth and is still delaying 20 years after their real estate bust.
I wonder who pays the fire insurance on the bank owned homes…..the banks? Or do they even carry it?
As a competent short sale listing agent, I feel the biggest problem besides overloaded banks is flaky buyers who aren’t committed to the process. Of the short sales I’ve done, not one of them took more than 120 days to close. Not one of them was a greedy homeowner stockpiling the money they weren’t paying their mortgage with. Not one of them had any influence over how expeditiously or slowly the sale was processed, but the author makes it seem as if we’re all in cahoots, conspiring against buyers. Nothing bothers me more than one-sided accounts of an event and the number of people who foolishly buy it without ever asking questions. This article has reassured me that my decision NOT to work with buyers was the right one and that I am right to have my clients thoroughly screen anyone making an offer on my listings to make sure we’re not dealing with time-wasters.
You may have not been able to read my comment while composing yours, but, what would you expect a buyer to do in month five if he was told in month one that “we could either pay the asking price immediately or wait three weeks and get it for tens of thousands of dollars less.”
Things would surely have gone differently with a different listing agent which is why item 3 above is titled “Without a Good Listing Agent, You’re Screwed”.
I’m not saying all listing agents are bad – ours was.
I am stunned by the complete lack of understanding of real estate transactions demonstrated in these comments, other than by Betty.
First, the listing agent works for the seller. His or her job is to market and advertise the property, attract a buyer, then present an offer. Once submitted, there is nothing he or she can do to accelerate the process. The listing agent has no influence over the seller, and often has no contact until the response is made. Oh, sure, a call can be made or an email sent, but if it goes unanswered, exactly what can the realtor do? Nothing but wait.
It’s the same for the buyer’s agent. His or her job is to advise the client, find a suitable property, prepare a contract and present the offer. After that, the buyer’s agent has no more influence than the listing agent and can do nothing other than wait for a response.
Your problem, Tim, was not with either agent, but rather with the bank.
Second, any deal involving a bank or corporate seller, whether it’s a short sale or a repo, you’re not negotiating with one person but several. There is an asset manager who has a regional manager who has a senior manager who is responsive to a pool of investors and a mortgage insurance company, not to mention another lender, and all the people involved, if there is a second or third lien, such as a HELOC or a mechanic’s, on the property. All of them have to sign off on the deal. Neither the listing agent nor the buyer’s agent has any contact with these people, except for the primary asset manager, who can’t do anything but wait for a response from all the rest.
It’s worse than one deal we had a few years back. It was held by a trust. The prior owner had died, but the problem was he had left the property to eleven heirs in ten states. Talk about a negotiation nightmare. They all had to come to an agreement. We presented a full price offer from a hopeful buyer, but after six months of phone calls, faxes and emails, the deal fell apart, because one guy wanted to raise the price by $10,000. To this day the house remains unsold.
Purchasing a house, especially an REO property and certainly a short sale, is a detailed process. There are contracts, amendments and addendums, and a lot of lawyers, involved, in addition to a title company. It can be a tedious and frustrating experience, surely for the realtors who spend time, money and gas trying to make a sale, only to not get paid if it doesn’t close.
That said, selling repos beats the hell of out working with owner occupiers, all of whom overvalue their homes and refuse to negotiate or listen to reason.
My advice is to tell your agent what your specific requirements are–price range, square footage, bedrooms, baths, fence, school district, whatever (some buyers demand a side entry garage, for example). And let him or her find the house for you. Ask for a history of the subdivision, sales and list prices going back five years, as well as three comparable sales and listings in the neighborhood in the last six months. Based on that information, confer with your agent and arrive at a fair market value. Then make that offer. Don’t try to lowball, just make the offer you’re willing to pay. The seller will either reject or accept it, or negotiate. If the latter, you will have to make a decision or go on to the next house. It’s very simple really.
Finally, good luck in your hunt for a home. There are a lot of deals out there, and you should be able to find a house to your liking rather quickly. Just don’t be surprised if the negotiations and closing take time. But obviously short sales are out.
You said:
“Neither the listing agent nor the buyer’s agent has any contact with these people, except for the primary asset manager, who can’t do anything but wait for a response from all the rest.”
Maybe it’s different where you are, but our listing agent negotiated a settlement with the second lien holder directly and then had varying degrees of success in passing the details on to the many people at the bank who worked on our “file”.
Well, the laws vary by states. I don’t know the law or the market where you are, and thus I am not qualified to give you advice or opinions on real estate, as I am not licensed by the local board. I only hope to give you inside information and a strategy.
That said, let me give you a little information about what I did today. I delivered a foreclosure notice to a house. The occupant happened to be home when I knocked on the door, and I asked him, “Are you the owner or a renter?”
“I’m the owner.” Well, sir, it is with regret that I have to tell you this house has been foreclosed on. I gave him the notice with options from Freddie Mac. But he was confused.
He had a lawyer who was supposed to have taken care of the matter. I asked him if he was a local attorney. No, he said, it was some law firm in California. He had sent them $7,000 last year, but hadn’t been able to contact them by phone or email since.
Well, I thought, sounds to me like you pissed away $7,000. Who’s your lender?
“Bank of America.” Go figure.
It’s not fun, this business. Delivering a foreclose notice to some poor soul who’s been robbed by his lawyers and lost his home as a result to a merciless bank. Nice home, by the way, a lovely townhouse in a desirable neighborhood. It’ll sell quick, after he’s evicted.
This is life, sad as it is, in the wonderful world of repos.
In reading through these comments it has become abundantly clear that there is mass confusion about short sales —- how they work, who does what, how to get them done. IMHO you’d have to be a fool to try to buy one of these properties.
Although you make some good points, it MUST be remembered that every short-sale experience is different. And really, “an experience” is what buying a property via a short-sale should be called.
I recently bought a luxury townhome via the short-sale process. My realtor said – and he turned out to be completely accurate – that a short-sale process will take anywhere from 3-12 or more months.
Why such a difference? While the listing agent is absolutely crucial, one thing you COMPLETELY failed to mention in your rant is that not all banks are equal. According to my realtor – and my experience backed up what he said – some banks, such as Citibank, tend to be fairly quick about the short-sale approval process. Other banks, especially Bank of America and Countrywide, are absolutely awful to deal with.
In my case, the short-sale was through Citibank (both a 1st and 2nd lien). The first lien holder approved the lien in 60 days. The 2nd lien holder (also Citibank), approved it in 90 days. Overall, the transaction took four months.
Although my case is far from normal I recognize, please don’t say the short-sale process is “draining”. It isn’t. The reason it might be draining is because YOU made it that way.
Truth is, the short-sale buying process is absolutely ideal for a buyer. The buyer can make multiple offers on properties and NOT be obligated to buy any of them. And the buyer can set the terms (forcing the seller to pay for things like title insurance and the like and setting the closing date and having plenty of leeway to change/modify things along the way).
The key thing when buying property being sold as a short-sale is to NOT get hung up on a “particular property.” As a buyer, you need to view things very coldly. Look at it this way – a house being sold via a short-sale is like a city bus. If you miss one, oh well…another one will be along shortly.
Finally, you are so DEAD WRONG about sellers having a “good time” in a short-sale. Banks literally hound sellers who are behind on their mortgages. Yes, many live rent free for months, sometimes years. However, the banks make sellers of short-sale properties literally jump through every freaking hoop imaginable. Reams of paperwork, income statements, tax forms and all the rest – continuously updated, sometimes weekly and usually monthly.
I highly doubt most sellers of a short-sale property would label it an “enjoyable or fun experience.” Indeed, the word “draining” would be the word I’d describe it as from what I’ve seen.
Meanwhile, as the buyer – you’re in the drivers seat. So buckle up and enjoy it.
As a point of clarification, I said “good news”, not “good time”, for the sellers (strictly from a personal finance point of view) and I certainly didn’t say it is an “enjoyable or fun experience” for them.
Maybe if we had Citibank as the lender and a better listing agent things would have gone better for us.
BTW – Are you married or single? I can see how this would be much easier to do with investment properties (see the comment by endofyourworld below) but I’ve yet to hear of a married couple (let alone a couple with kids) that have made it past the four month mark.
I’m single…with loads of patience. The place I bought was for a primary residence, not an investment.
In the world of buying short-sale property, patience is most certainly a needed virtue.
Tim,
We are a family of four, my husband, myself and 2 young children and we are 3 and half months into a shortsale offer with no response although we were told we should be hearing a response by 9/18. Well it is 9/17 and I am not going to hold my breath that we are going to hear anything by tomorrow (a Saturday) no less. We sold our home quickly back in June and have been renting the home we have the short sale offer on since then. There are 2 liens one with Wells Fargo, one with Wachovia (now Wells Fargo). Our offer is not unreasonable given comparables and we already had inspections done which were sent in the package to the bank showing the home needs repairs-it was not maintained for 2 years and the septic system has an issue which the bank has been made aware of. We are getting very frustrated and all we keep being told is that we have to wait. It seems as though we are not given any information on how the process is going other than that their attorney is still negotiating with the lender. I feel like as the buyer, we get very little respect and I agree with you and feel for you regarding your experience. I hope to eventually own this home but we continue to keep our eyes open for other houses as well since there are no guarantees in this silly process. I am not sure how they expect anyone to buy a home this way. There has got to be a better way than this.
I wish you good luck.
my partner and i have bought and sold 16 short sale properties in the last year-you give the bank a deadline,no extensions-find out when their committee is meeting,submit it-you tell them what is-take it or leave it-no counter offers-move on to next one-we have bid 24 times-they took it 16 times-about 35 cents on the dollar-by this time next year it will be 10 cents on the buck-and dont deal with jackass banks like bofa-and we are not greedy when we sell-everybody wins-our last property in Cal city Ca. was first sold for 285 gs-we bought for 103gs-sold it for 125 gs-every thing took 7 weeks-success….
Related: Bill sets 45-day deadline on lender short sale decisions
[...] yesterday, a housing rebound is “possible”. And two great items from Tim Iacono: lessons he learned from trying (and failing) to buy a short sale, and a road map from delinquent mortgage to REO. In case you didn’t know, REO stands for [...]
We started our short sale process in mid-July in the Tampa/St. Pete area. After our offer (17K below asking) then counteroffer (9k below asking) we are ready to start closing and supposedly listing agent will come to us today with papers/addendum (with a seller concession that makes up some of the difference between offer/counteroffer). Lender has been late on every deadline but only by a week or so and have been relatively responsive. Have been emotionally cool through process, but am thankful for the reminder from you all that many things could still go wrong. My 2 cents–take or leave–I try not to put faith in banks, brokers or buildings…but keep perspective by thanking God I’m alive, have a roof over my head and can even considering buying a home.
We are in a similar situation that Tim was in, except we offered over asking price on the short sale. Our offer was put the beginning of May and we are now going on the fifth month without a closing date. Today we got a call from our Realtor letting us know the bank is asking for another 60 day extension. Not to mention we were told last week that a 3rd party appraiser was being assigned to the home. We aren’t really certain who is screwing with us at this point, whether it is B of A, our Realtor, the listing agent or the actual seller. We’ve been more than patient and calm about the situation but now it seems like it is tail spinning out of control. I personally feel bad for all parties involved in the short sale process. The transaction has not been streamlined and will most likely never be. Each week we were told by our Realtor we would have the paperwork in hand by Friday. And every Friday that has come to pass we have nothing to show. No proof. No paperwork. No closing date. No house. My honest recommendation is that a short sale should be left for investors and corporations. All in all a short sale is definitely not what it is often times cracked up to be. We were told this would be an easy streamlined process. As first time home buyers we were not properly informed by our Realtor the true side of a short sale. Why should a bank/Realtor care how long it takes for the paperwork to make it’s way to the closing table? They still have money in their pockets and other clients homes to close on, now don’t they……
As an update to be helpful to anyone considering a short sale. The bank (BoA) got stuck at the place where we left off more than 2 weeks ago. They agreed verbally to a final price about 15k below asking, but have not pulled the trigger on signing the addendum. Meanwhile our landlord is rightfully getting frustrated and we have to make a decision to pull out or pay another month’s rent in hopes the bank will respond. The other incentive to pull out is that in the 3 months since the offer was made, prices have gone down generally in the area and a few other homes in the complex went on the market as short sale…So our offer 7% below asking is now just an ok deal, not stellar. Giving it a few more days until deciding finally it wasn’t meant to be. Hold on loosely if you enter the short sale game!
I have had an offer on a short sale for 6 or 7 months now and I can completly relate.. We have just heard back that the file has gone to the underwriter for the bank but who knows when our next update will be. I JUST WANT TO END THIS WHOLE THING… Short Sales I feel are a Scam
In case you didn’t already see this:
http://timiacono.com/index.php/2010/10/28/i-have-a-confession-to-make/
Things ended up working out for us…
Tim
Sounds a little like our ordeal.. We are dealing with Lehman Brothers “Aurora” and this whole process has taken its toll on us. I am a 27yr old first time homebuyer in Miami and to be honest almost every house here is a short sale so I really have no choice in the matter.. The bank has already done three BPO’S from what i have been reading usually after the third BPO is when things start to move a little faster. I am not sure what exactly the underwriter is doing or how long that will take but we are keeping our fingers crossed.
Great news…. After 7 months of waiting for the short sale with aurora it was finally approved, just woke up this morning and saw the email informing us that we had been approved and need to close before Jan. 10th.
Congrats!
Ours worked out finally too. We started in mid-July and closed in mid November, so reading the other posts I guess we were fortunate with 5 months. One twist in ours which might be helpful. On October 19 the bank-after waiting for over a month for their response, signed the final contract and wrote date of close Oct 29, just 10 days later! The first info. was that they may or may not chrge per diem at a rate that they will determine…We insisted on at least knowing the rate, and eventually got them to waive the per diem, but lost a few more days in the process. New close date was Nov. 19, which we hit exactly.
My personal bottom line…short sale was worth it because 1) we really loved the property and it offered much more than alternatives 2) we were relatively flexible with time of move (though that still was stressful 3) though we loved the property, we also kept perspective and more than once prepared ourselves to walk away when the deal threatened to change… Good luck!
Congrats to you too, Jason. Crazy stuff these short sales but more happy endings every week it seems.
Thanks Tim, to you too.
We are just starting to look and have 7 months left on our lease so hopefully that will be enough time. There are several homes in one subdivision that we like and all are short sales. They range from 135k to 200k for the same size and features. The comps show the recent sales have averaged about 170k but the market is still going down in Tampa. That leaves me wondering where to place my offer. Has anyone found better experience dealing with va repos or does it matter?
I do not know if anyone cares. But we made an offer on a short sale. The full asking price and we pay the closing cost. After receiving the run around from the bank, note we were dealing with a very motivated seller and both real estate agents experience in short sales. We finally heard from the bank that they were not accepting our offer because they figured they would get more money auctioning it off on the courthouse steps. We showed up in hopes to get it for close to the same price and the house was never auction. The agents called again trying to get information and was told the house was going to forclousure, The sellers agent called the lawyer to see if the paperwork was filed and found out he has never seen anything and the seller have not received paperwork from the bank about the forclosure. We moved on and started looking at other houses. A month later the house is still in limbo with no one knowing what is going on.
The banks are annoying and greedy. It does not matter if you offer the max of what the house is worth in the current market they want more. The problem becomes many loads require an appraisal and if the house does not appraise the loan will not be approved. With the current market the houses do not appraise for what the original loans are so unless you get extremely lucky everything else is either bank owned or a short sale so you have to pray and be patient but let me say after months of dealing with all this I am about the scream. So I feel all of your pain and wish you well.
Keep us all in your prayers, I think it is the only way that it will work and the banks will finally finish the stupid paperwork.
This is all interesting to read. My husband and I just found a house we love last week and put an offer on it the day we saw it. It is a short sale but we offered the list price and the sellers accepted it. Our realtor seems pretty optimistic about the whole thing. She was really excited for us that our offer was put in first, and it’s been on the market for quite some time. She seems to think it won’t take more than 4 months (at the most) to close and also doesn’t think the bank will counter with much more than we offered. But after all I read here, I’m not sure! Our apartment lease isn’t up til July, so we’re thankfully not in any rush. We hope we get it… We love the place!
Good luck!
TIm,
I wrote to you back on 9/17 that my family of 4 were 3 and a half months into a short sale offer with no response and I am writing today to say that we finally closed on the home 7 months after the short sale offer went to the bank. We rented the home from the owners until the closing but never fully unpacked our boxes just in case. A foreclosure notice was given at the end of December and this seemed to finally speed the process along. One month later we closed. The seller’s put up 10k and the bank accepted our offer. We were stuck paying about 3 weeks worth of unpaid property taxes in the end but that was because the bank would not pay them and the seller’s were tapped out after putting up 10k for the bank. After going through this I feel like the best advice I can give anyone if they are going to attempt to buy a short sale is be prepared to wait, have a back up plan in case it doesn’t work out and be prepared to possibly pay something (like some closing costs) in the end. Also, in our case renting the home was helpful because it saved us from moving twice (we sold our other home in June) and we were able to maintain the home and make sure it did not fall into a greater state of disrepair. This also avoided the issue of the sellers possibly destroyingthe home, or taking appliances and fixtures out of the home. In the end the hardest thing to do was wait and feel helpless which is what the buyer feels because they can’t really do anything to speed the process along. The bank takes their time and they also asked the sellers for some of the same documents over and over which is even more frustrating. In the end, our attorney said that other than the long wait, our short sale actually went well. We do feel we got a good price and we do love the house. There are some repairs but the price accounts for it. I never thought I would have to wait this long but I am thankful I stuck it out and that it is finally over.
Good for you – I’m glad it worked out. What a crazy way to buy a house!
That is a great idea-move into the house before it closes! If you could just guarantee that the property would close, and not fall through. I put an offer on a short-sale three months ago, but I read ALL about it before I did. So, I have never gotten too attached, I am actually waiting for my offer to fall apart. Lol. Once a month, I’ll check out another property I am interested in. No hurry, as home prices are still dropping. If we get the house… cool, if not, I can afford one with a pool in a few months. The Bay Area, CA, is still pricey…minimum $500k for something quasi-livable.
I just read all of your postings about short sales and I recently put an offer in on a home in queens and it was presented to the bank in 2/1/11. it went to the bank and then to a arbitrator and then supposely to a third party . still waiting and living in an month to month apartment with a landlord that wanted us out four months after we moved in because we told him it was temporary, however we are still waiting. our appraisal came in 19,000 lower than the bank’s appraisal. go figure? not sure how much longer we can wait. prayer and pratience is working for me at this moment.
I found myself on your site because I’m getting to the end of my rope on an offer we put in back in January. We’re going to stick it out and see what happens. We’re in no hurry so we can afford to wait.
We didn’t know our seller was 10k light on a 450k mortgage because I don’t believe he knew. But once it came to light and the paperwork submitted you would think the teller at the counter could approve that deal. We’ve since lowered our offer to what we believe the home would sell for less the costs of foreclosure to Wells Fargo (sellers lender). If we’re going to go through the ass-ache may as well be for $40k.
I understand banks are looking to take a loss, but this was so small you would have thought they would have jumped on it. Between taxes and the seller no longer making payments I would have to think they are losing close to $5k a month.
So coming up on 6-months we have received zero communications from Wells Fargo. Not a counter, not even a courtesy call regarding status. My guess is we end up at the sheriff sale in a few months buying it at foreclose for $450k. How Well’s considers that to be the best business deal for them is baffling.
Wow. I could not have gathered my thoughts this well. This is everything and more that I have been through. The banks are in no hurry to sell. There are so many different gray areas, and fraud. It is a shame. The responsible qualified buyers are the one’s being screwed right now.
[...] Five Key Points on Buying a Short Sale On September 15, 2010, in Housing, Personal, by Tim [...]